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 Post subject: In Christianity
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 12:34 pm 
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Much of the history of tobacco usage by Christian clergy throughout the centuries has been suppressed by the last few generations of fear-based science and statistical prophecy. Few people recall that powerful Preachers throughtout the centuries, like Spurgeon, smoked a cigar. Even to recent history, I have spoken in the past to an old woman from Texas who told me that when she was a teenager, she thought it was quite hypocritical of the Pastor to smoke in Church, and still preach against dancing.

I have found in nearly 20 years of study within the umbrella of Evangelical Christianity, that the most explicit instructions concerning whether or not smoking is "sinful", or whether or not we should use tobacco, come from the early church fathers up to the council of Nicea, 325ad.
Within their writings against the gnostic philosophies, there is much to be said about whether or not the current anti-smoking trends within the Christian Churches of today are Bible-based, or as a result of 50 years of an anti-smoking culture.

but aside from the traditions and exegesis of Early Church Fathers like Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Eusebius, Tertullian,Chrysostom, Agustine; We have an even better assurance from the Bible.


Colossians 2:16- Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


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 Post subject: Re: In Christianity
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 1:35 pm 
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I have researched smoking in the Bible. The best reference there is to it is the verses against gluttony, and the ones about all things in moderation.
When you smoke a cigarette your blood sugar levels go up, same as when a person eats. You are actually ingesting the smoke, in a way. So look at the food restrictions in order to better understand tobacco. It is something like chocolate, which I am told some cigarettes have in them.
I used to teach children's church, hubby was worship leader, and many gave us grief about smoking, as they pigged out at the church dinner. They would say, oh the body is God's temple, which it is, and then say smoking is defiling it, as they eat enough food to feed me for a week at one setting.
I will remind you of what Jesus said, when the lady was caught in adultery, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
There are far worse things we can do to the body than smoke a cigarette.
I will remind you all, eat right, sleep right, exercise, and do all things in moderation, to the Glory of God.


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 Post subject: Re: In Christianity
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:39 pm 
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I'm reminded of "feet of clay"


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 Post subject: Re: In Christianity
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 1:17 pm 
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this world is fading away...But anyone who does what pleases God will live forever. "
1 John 2:17




The Sufficiency of the Scripture

#5. With regard to the Christian life, the sufficiency of the Scripture reminds us that nothing is sin that is not forbidden by scripture either explicitly or by implication. To walk in the law of the Lord is to be “blameless” (Ps. 119:1). Therefore we are not to add prohibitions to those already stated in scripture. From time to time there may be situations in which it would be wrong, for example, for an individual Christian to drink Coca-Cola, or to attend movie theaters, or to eat meat offered to idols (see 1 Cor. 8-10), but unless some specific teaching or some general principle of Scripture can be shown to prohibit these (or any other activities) for all believers for all time, we must insist that these activities are not in themselves sinful and they are not in all situations prohibited by God for his people.

This also is an important principle because there is always the tendency among believers to begin to neglect the regular daily searching of Scripture for guidance and to begin to live by a set of written or unwritten rules (or denominational traditions) concerning what one does or does not do in the Christian life.

Furthermore, whenever we add to the list of sins that are prohibited by Scripture itself, there will be harm to the church and to the lives of individual believers. The Holy Spirit will not empower obedience to rules that do not have God’s approval from Scripture, nor will believers generally find delight in obedience to commands that do not accord to the laws of God written in their hearts. In some cases, Christians may earnestly plead with God for “victory” over supposed sins that are in fact no sins at all, yet no “victory” will be given, for the attitude or action in question is in fact not a sin and is not displeasing to God. Great discouragement in prayer and frustration in the Christian life generally may be the outcome.

In other cases, continued or even increasing disobedience to these new “sins” will result, together with a false sense of guilt and a resulting alienation from God. Often there arises an increasingly uncompromising and legalistic insistence on these new rules on the part of those who do follow them, and genuine fellowship among believers in the church will fade away. Evangelism will often be stifled. For the silent proclamation of the gospel that comes from the lives of the believers will at least seem (to outsiders) to include the additional requirement that one must fit this uniform pattern of life in order to become a member of the Body of Christ.
Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, pp. 133


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 Post subject: Re: In Christianity
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 2:25 pm 
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I'm reminded of "Test all teachings"


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 Post subject: Re: In Christianity
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 10:49 pm 
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yeah, really. Try the spirits, test the evidences, Prove all things. And not only that, but cling to what is good.


1 Thessalonians 5:15-22

"5:15 See that no one pays back evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good for one another and for all.
Always rejoice,
constantly pray,
in everything give thanks. For this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.
Do not extinguish the Spirit.
Do not treat prophecies with contempt. But examine all things;
hold fast to what is good.
Stay away from every form of evil."


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 Post subject: Re: In Christianity
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 8:02 am 
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I follow the CCC which goes hand and hand with the bible.
Quote:
2290 The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine.


Aside from that I know my Parish priest enjoys a cigar every once in a while and another who will have some hard liquor during some celebrations. I asked him why didn't want any wine and his response was he already has enough during Mass. :lol: Anyhow. It all boils done to moderation. God gave us this world and it's fruits to enjoy. He also gave us a brain and more importantly a bible to explain how to go about it.


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 Post subject: Re: In Christianity
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 2:40 pm 
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yes, that is true. The Bible calls excess drunkenness. And that can be true for just about everything, even beyond the context of food and drink. There are a handful of traditional quotes that agree with that, I'll post some.
But beyond that, there is the issue of conscience. We need to assume responsibility for our convictions. If something does not sit well with our conscience and we continue, we become insensitive to the Lord's conviction, as our conscience is the seat of God's conviction, and then become insensitive to His guidance in our lives.

Liberty of conscience is at the the heart of Protestant theology, it is the principle issue not only that separated the Reformers of the 1400's and 1500's from the Roman Catholic Church, but also led to our own Nation's declaration of independence from England. We can recognize that the principles of free faith were important because they are the very first citizen rights to be protected as described in our Nation's constitution: the People are free to believe, first and foremost.

I don't believe abstinence from tobacco will add even one second to my life: my days were set by the Creator who designed me. I think that assumption is a false, speculative prophecy that is contrary to the Truths presented in the Word of God, which are evidenced as Truth by a man who claimed to be God coming out of the grave.
It is sometimes difficult to believe that, and for the most part it is an extreme; but like Martin Luther, my conscience is held captive by the Word of God. It's what the Bible says...
My understanding as to why 400,000 smokers die every year is because of excess. We probably smoke more than what we should. Excess is sin, and is self- destructive.


anyways, here's a few quotes:

"Unless I am refuted and convicted by testimonies of the Scriptures or by clear arguments (since I believe neither the Pope nor the Councils alone; it being evident that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am conquered by the Holy Scriptures quoted by me, and my conscience is bound in the word of God: I can not and will not recant any thing, since it is unsafe and dangerous to do any thing against the conscience."
Martin Luther, Testimony April, 1521

"For it is not the eating that makes unclean, but the intention with which a man eats. If then thou dost not set that aright, you have done all to no purpose, and hast made things worse: for thinking a thing unclean is not so bad as tasting it when one thinks it unclean"
John Chrysostom, Homily 26 on Romans (Rom. XIV. 14)

"The substances are themselves as creatures of God without impurity, and in this their native state are free to the use of all; but the ministries to which in their use they are devoted, makes all the difference... I burn the Arabian product myself, but not with the same ceremony, nor in the same dress, nor with the same pomp, with which it is done to idols."
Tertullian, The Chaplet, part first, chap.10

"As you interpret it, the thing is incredible. And first I shall not occupy myself with this, though able to say and to hold that every vegetable is food, and fit to be eaten. But although we discriminate between green herbs, not eating all, we refrain from eating some, not because they are common or unclean, but because they are bitter, or deadly, or thorny. But we lay hands on and take of all herbs which are sweet, very nourishing and good, whether they are marine or land plants."
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, chap. 20

"For a certain Alcibades, who was one of them, led a very austere life, partaking of nothing whatever but bread and water. When he endeavored to continue this same sort of life in prison, it was revealed to Attalus after his first conflict in the ampitheater that Alcibades was not doing well in refusing the creatures of God and placing a stumblingblock before others. And Alcibades obeyed, and partook of all things without restraint, giving thanks to God. For they were not deprived of the grace of God, but the Holy Ghost was their counselor"
The Church History of Eusebius, Book V. Chapter III

"we have showed that in the department of medicine, for healing, and sometimes also for moderate recreation, the delight derived from flowers, and the benefit derived from unguents and perfumes, are not to be overlooked. And if some say, What pleasure, then, is there in flowers to those that do not use them? let them know, then, that unguents are prepared from them, and are most useful."
Clement of Alexandria, Paedagogus, Book 2, chap. 8

"Be assured that nothing is so good for young Christians as the eating of herbs."
-Jerome- Letter LIV- to Furia, .10


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 Post subject: Re: In Christianity
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 3:51 pm 
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Don't need no justification to smoke. I enjoy it. Period. Moderation in all things.


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 Post subject: Re: In Christianity
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 4:20 pm 
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I am confused Jeff.
You say abstinence from smoking will not add one second to your life, it is set by your Creator. This speaks of predestination.

Then you said that 400,000 die of lung cancer due to excess. This speaks of human choice.

I am confused, abstaining will not add days, but excess will shorten days? Predestination and choice, together?
Maybe the 400,000 would have died of a car wreck if not from lung cancer, if predestined?

I believe that we are created beings, and have a life span, that we can affect, based on our relationship to our Creator. Our actions are part of our relationship to the Lord.

Days have been added: 2 Kings 20:1-6
Hezekiah was going to die, he prayed, and God gave him 15 more years.

Proverbs 3:16 Length of days is in her right hand, and in her left hand riches and honor.
This is talking about Godly wisdom. So, using wisdom from above will increase length of days.

Proverbs 9:11 For by me, thy days, shall be multiplied, and the years of thy life, shall be increased. This is talking about Godly understanding gained through Wisdom.

So, use Godly wisdom and understanding in all areas and you can increase your days here.

You are correct, a simple human act, without God acting, will not add anything at all. To believe that by not doing this or that you will live longer is to set yourself up as a god. We can definitely affect the quality or lack of quality in our lives. But, God with wisdom and understanding directs our length of days.


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 Post subject: Re: In Christianity
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:51 am 
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I would first point out that abstinence from foods God created to be received with thanksgiving would work a death in us, just like excessive misuse of those same foods.

For the most part it is an extreme, and it is an argument similar to a Calvinist predestination theology. Often, Calvinist Christians are not burdened much to spread the Gospel, because they figure God already has it planned out. That is a similar extreme. An illustration of this logic applied to smoking would be "well, God knows whether or not I'm going to smoke in excess, and there's nothing I can do about it, it's all part of His plan."

God made us free moral agents, but our free will only functions within the limits of God's will. Kind of like a game of chess with someone better than you; we can make all the best possible moves you can, but then be countered with equally impressive moves until we are backed into the corner where God wants us to be... but it was also our "free-will" moves that got us there.

the car wreck, struck by lightning, etc. seems to be the most logical response. It acknowledges God in total control, allows our steps to be ordered by Him, and keeps every detail down to the hairs on our head in His all-knowing essence. But it is in no way provable; it can only be a speculation, a wonder of our imaginations.

We know from the Word that sin works death in man. I imagine that in the garden, in a world without sin, there would be no possibility to be "excessive". To consume something to an excess is the evidence of sin working death in our lives. If we truly loved God, we wouldn't sin. But like Paul says in Romans, "oh wretched man that I am!". I can't do it, no matter how hard I try, no matter if God gave me commands to keep me alive, I cannot keep them all. I'm not perfect like that, I'm a sinner, sold to the slavery of sin. I am in a world of sin, and the standard of perfection required to come before a Holy Creator without also bearing the wrath of His justice is not possible for me to attain. There is a debt to be paid, that is owed by my soul, and it is not possible for me to pay it.

By the Grace of Jesus Christ, that debt is paid in full. I mean, I hope in that promise He made. I hope what He said is True, and I'm quite confident that it is. Coming out of the grave is some pretty good evidence that what He said is True.




o.k. I'm rambling. You make a well thought out point that I have wrestled with before, I will now spend some more time on it and see if I can articulate a more reasonable position, one that better reflects the Truth. But it does come down to the principles of predestination , and to an extent, sanctification as well.

What you said

"We can definitely affect the quality or lack of quality in our lives. But, God with wisdom and understanding directs our length of days."

I believe that to be true as well. I will meditate on this, and see if I can't work my thoughts to that application, because it is the right understanding.

Just out of curiosity, What kind Church would you attend if you go?
I enjoy a Pentecostal service, I prefer it, but I have difficulty growing with the Body. Often I feel condemned. As a result, I study mostly by myself, and the Baptist material is a lot easier to work with. But I still have much PCG material to work with.


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 Post subject: Re: In Christianity
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 12:36 pm 
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Welcome to God's church.
Many of us are called out of denominational churches. We have home Bible studies and invite many as would like to join us to come. We occassionally rent a local building for communion with other believer's who are also without a "denominational church". And there are many, many who are members of God's church that are called to stay in a particular church, as well as, many infiltrators who are there to sow discord in the body. Church, is not a building, nor a denomination.

Okay, now I get into trouble. There is good and not good in all Christian religions, I know nothing about any others. Mankind takes things of God and tries to improve or clarify them to others. We all do this and when man messes with doctrine it is not so good.

I was raised, Church of Christ, Baptist, and Methodist all depending on who took me to church. I was baptized in the Apostelic church. When my husband and I got married, we had Church of Christ 6 week Bible study leading up to the wedding, we were married in a Baptist church, by a Lutheran preacher. Husband was Baptist all the way.

Our former pastor was Baptist. He got spirit-filled and was asked to step down because his beliefs and the Baptist beliefs were in conflict. We grew up spiritually as, Spirit-filled Baptist, for lack of any other term. We wholeheartedly agreed with the Baptists, except they stop short on the Spirit indwelling issues. Then we joined another non-denominational church, this had formerly been Mennonite, I think, but they weren't anymore. We grew up even more there, and so did they, I like to think because of our availability to the Lord and His leading.
Then we moved, have not found a home church, we visit, and we fellowship with Christians. My husband is a Bible scholar, with more than head knowledge, I keep him humble. He keeps me focused. We are both called to preach, not by man, by God. But, most of the time, God will take us in completely different directions, to establish the same principle.

We have preached in Catholic Churches, and been rejected by Pentecostal churches over dumb things like pretrib, midtrib, or posttrib. I am hoping for pretrib, hubby says after studying he sees midtrib, but hopes that I am correct.

I started out as a Jesus Freak and guess that I will end as a Jesus Freak. I simply adore Him. Jesus left us with 2 commandments: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself. If we do these two things, all things will fall into place. His burden is light and easily born, if you can't manage it, He will pick you up and carry you and the burden.

I am called to Love my neighbor, my neighbor is everyone that I come into contact with. I may challenge you to think, and get your feelings clear to yourself especially, but I won't judge you, that is not my calling. I will pray for you, and let God sort it all out.
I do speak in an unknown tongue, I do lay hands on the sick and they do recover, I do get revelation from God, I have been used to raise the dead (scared me to death), and I have stopped storms in the name of Jesus. And you know what? A garden hose can do just as much if it is hooked to the right source. I can do nothing, not even breathe my next breath without God allowing me to, and with God... I can do all things, I can be all things... It is the One who dwells in me, not me.

God does deal with his children differently. A dear brother had an issue with alcohol. God told him that he could never drink again. I, don't like alcohol, I will have a hot toddy if sick, or maybe a pink squirrel or daiquiri, like once or twice a year. God is okay with that. I prayed and asked God if it was really okay, and I believe that God said, yes it is fine. I asked why? Why can I drink alcohol and another cannot. The answer, alcohol is a non-issue to me, and a stumbling block to my brother. I may not drink alcohol in that brother's presence, and he may not touch it. Because he will be filled by a spirit or spirits that are not of God, and he will drink to excess, not just one daiquiri. Do you see?
I have 4 sons, and I can not possibly treat them all the same, one has a different strength, another has a different weakness, it is okay to let God lead, and just follow along. Don't judge, and it is okay to notice the differences, and maybe ask why? God will usually answer you, in one way or another and you will know, unless you are asking in a challenging way.

Okay, do you still love me? You asked for that one! I love you, in Jesus.


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 Post subject: Re: In Christianity
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 2:24 pm 
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Absolutely! Nothing can seperate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus and that love is demonstrated one to another. Love is the command. My love for Christ is real, and his covering over my life is true. I recognize that my love for Him is not as great as His love for me. But everyday I grow closer and closer to Him, even if and when He feels far away.

-and if you're not gonna brow beat me over smoking, you will be one of my most loved Christian sisters :D

I've spent much time in the Pentecostal Church of God. But I can't "classify" myself as a Penecostal. I certainly agree overall with the doctrinal statements of the Churches, but I've not been in years. I would agree with your husband. It all looks midtrib to me. But my hope and security in the Word is set on knowing that in Christ, I will not bear His wrath.
I enjoy theology. I enjoy word studies as well, although my lack of knowledge of Greek and Hebrew language is a limitation. I read KJV and one other, the NET bible. I came across it a few years ago. I love the notes. The translation is good, too. I have a fairly good handful of books to reference and read. I really enjoy the Early Church writings and the history of the Christian church. I need to read more. The last sermons I listened to were from a Baptist preacher and an old radio Preacher named Donald Grey Barnhouse. I've been in the study of Romans for quite some time.

Home studies are good. I like Churches that are strong in their relationships, and that requires trust and confidence in each others love. Like you said, and the Baptist minister said, and Mr. Barnhouse said, Jesus didn't die for buildings.


"In the matter of religious Truth the question of reality is in the source of the Truth in the Lord Jesus Christ, guaranteed by His resurrection from the dead, and the authenticity of the revelation which He has given through the Word which conveys all Truth to us. The authority cannot be in man or in a group of men, nor in an organization of men. It cannot, therefore, be in a Church, whatever its nature or pretensions. The authority must be in the Word of Christ's revelation, and in that alone. It is this that must be believed"
 
Mr. Barnhouse


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 Post subject: Re: In Christianity
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 3:06 pm 
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I hear you on the smoking issue, been there done that.

We were fortunate that the Spirit-filled Baptist preacher's parents smoked. So it was a non-issue there.
We taught childrens church, and when parents that smoked saw that their children's sunday school teachers were smokers. And were allowed to minister in church, it brought them into church. Sure, some made issues of it, but the staff told them it was between us and God. Did you know that Paul, the apostle, had an issue, and God did not heal him, and it was an embarassment to him, God said his Grace was sufficient for it. Hold on to that grace!

When will people learn? It is our job to tell people about Jesus, and His wonderful teachings and blessings. It is The Holy Spirit's job to lead them to the Sinner's Prayer, and once they get there, it is between them and God. We are told to love, not judge.
We do judge our own hearts and attitudes. But, how do you know why that brother or sister over there is grouchy, or rude, or whatever, DON'T JUDGE, DON'T ADD RULES TO THE BIBLE, DON'T INCREASE ANOTHER PERSONS BURDEN.

Yes, judge your own behavior, but be lenient, Jesus died for you, even if you were the only one who accepted Him. He would have done it for any one of us. Yes, have conduct rules that you obey, but don't expect sinners to play by your rules, nor brothers and sisters to have to dance to your tune. And live everyday like it is your last, and work like there is no tomorrow.

Having said that, we are not called to be wimps, and sometimes letting someone push you around or be mean is not Love. If you see a brutal crime happening, don't ignore it, get involved, but careful of anger. It is not Love to turn a blind eye to the suffering of others. Be careful not to become a Pharasee and get so bogged down in rules and appearances, that you miss an opportunity to live life to the fullest. Enjoy life! Enjoy Jesus! Enjoy your neighbor, family, friends! Stop and smell those tobacco flowers, enjoy the moment! If we show the world how wonderful Jesus is, they will want Him! If we show the world rules, regulations, judgement, an uncaring attitude, argumentive attitude etc, why would they want what we have? We, Christians, are the only Bible some folks will ever read!


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 Post subject: Re: In Christianity
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:10 pm 
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Osark Lady.

Based on many of your beliefs I say we agree on quite a bit. I am a cradle Catholic, in the Latin rite. Though many will disagree I have found much of what I believe in this faith comes straight from the bible. I don't judge other's in what they believe, but keep an open mind. I have to because it is one of the toughest faiths to defends. In the early Christianity the devil tried to destroy the church from the outside; killing millions through the persecutions which as you can see didn't work. After that he tried to destroy it within the church, thus you had the dark ages. Government influences over the church kept believers of hearing the truths and it almost worked, until the reformers came along. Today I know Satan is still trying to destroy church within and out. I see his work on our TVs, radios, schools, media, government. ect... Once faithful Catholics and more importantly us Christians all together abandoning their beliefs for immorality. Judging each other, murdering the unborn, promoting sex before marriage, adultery, love for self and materials things. This is what happens when we turn away from Him. One thing I hold near the top of my faith is that Satan shall not prevail. Those who accept Him and live close by and follow His words will be saved, no matter what.

Anyways, I don't like to digress away from issue of tobacco too much, but these are my feelings and they seem to be appropriate for the thread.


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