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 Post subject: Re: N. rustica (Mt. Pima)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:16 am 
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Location: NE Washington
fadatim3 wrote:
i weighed in some stem too though, i will have to check again. i inhaled one mouthful today and i though i cud fly for a few seconds :D


LMAO Rustica gives you wings!

The yield on Rusticas is pretty low compared to most Tobaccum varieties. But they are also much smaller plants with smaller leaves. Getting 1 oz per plant is a pretty good yield for most varieties.

I agree about Mt. Pima not being a Rustica. Same with Papante. They both have all the characteristics of a tobaccum variety, not a Rustica. I would guess my yield on Mt. Pima was from 3 to 4 oz but I didn't actually weigh it.

I have been wondering if I could get a chromosome count done on Mt. Pima by one of our local Colleges or Universities. We have some pretty AG orientated schools in our area and counting chromosomes dates back to the 1850's. It's really a pretty low tech thing to do. That would solve the mystery once and for all.


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 Post subject: Re: N. rustica (Mt. Pima)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:14 pm 
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Location: South Florida
Skychaser wrote:
The yield on Rusticas is pretty low compared to most Tobaccum varieties. But they are also much smaller plants with smaller leaves. Getting 1 oz per plant is a pretty good yield for most varieties.



1 oz per plant sounds huge! You'll have to tell me the secret about how you're doing that in Washington and I can only get .1 oz in Florida. Must be the sea salt stunting my plants. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: N. rustica (Mt. Pima)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:57 pm 
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Jolly wrote:
Skychaser wrote:
The yield on Rusticas is pretty low compared to most Tobaccum varieties. But they are also much smaller plants with smaller leaves. Getting 1 oz per plant is a pretty good yield for most varieties.



1 oz per plant sounds huge! You'll have to tell me the secret about how you're doing that in Washington and I can only get .1 oz in Florida. Must be the sea salt stunting my plants. :wink:


I can get an oz from Aztec and Isleta Pueblo. Maybe 3/4 oz from Mohawk and about 1/10 oz from Wayandot. But Wayandot grows so fast and matures so early I could easily get 2 crops in one season.

Here is some picts of them. http://skychasers.net/rusticas.htm

I have Punche, Sacred Cornplanter and Clevelandii growing this year. No picts yet but I'll try to get some up soon. The Clevelandii is from wild collected seed that Rusty found growing in a wash near his home in California and was kind enough to send to me. They are doing quite well so far and are very different looking from any other tobacco I have grown.

Ok, back on topic, Mt Pima. Last years crop has finally aged long enough to give it a fair taste test so I chopped up a few leaves last week and we gave it a try. It's fairly mild and mellow to smoke and definitely tastes like a Maryland type tobacco. A little stronger than Catterton, but very similar. It's been a couple years or more since I smoked a Marlboro but that's what it tasted like to me. And Catterton tastes a lot like a a Marlboro light. Toss in a pinch of a good Burley and I would be pretty happy smoking it. On the down side, the Mt Pima didn't burn that well on its own. Even when bone dry, it often went out and needed a relight. Blended with a little of something else it burned fine.


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 Post subject: Re: N. rustica (Mt. Pima)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:01 pm 
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Location: near Blacksburg, VA
Results of my crossing experiment

The question arose as to whether Mt. Pima and Papante are N. rustica or N. tabacum. These are the interim results of my attempt to determine the answer.

Using Little Dutch as a known N. tabacum, and Sacred Cornplanter as a know N. rustica, I planted 4 of each of these two known varieties, as well as 4 of each of the two test varieties (Mt. Pima and Papante) side by side in a double-dug garden bed fertilized with composted cow manure. All axial suckers were removed regularly from all the 16 plants. One specimen of each variety was bagged with Agribon-AG15 for production of "selfed" seed. The other plants were allowed to blossom in the open.

The crossing experiment involved 5 instances each of 12 distinct crosses: each of the 4 varieties served as pollinator (staminate) to the remaining 3, and each of the 4 varieties served as host (pistillate) to each of the other 3 varieties.

The day before a pistillate host blossom was due to open, the tip of the blossom was removed with clean scissors, and each of its 5 immature anthers was removed with clean forceps. Using a different set of clean forceps, two matured anthers of a freshly opened blossom on the pollen donor (staminate) were transferred into the host blossom. The host blossom was then sealed with a flap of paper masking tape which completely occluded the blossom.

Although marginal pollination of rustica by tabacum was a possibility, this never appeared to occur. The crossed blossoms either progressed to form a fat seed pod, or the blossom and the pod were aborted (simply dropped off).

Even though I have not yet attempted to verify that the fat seed pods contain fertile seed, the results of the experiment seem fairly clear at this point. Mt. Pima and Papante easily pollinate each other, as well as Little Dutch, forming fat seed pods. In the opposite direction, Little Dutch easily pollinates Mt. Pima and Papante. Cornplanter (known rustica) is not pollinated by any of the other three, and has failed to pollinate any of the other three, indicated by aborted seed pods.

Supporting this conclusion is the nearly identical morphology of the test varieties with Little Dutch, and the typical shape, size and color (pink) of the blossoms of the test varieties, held in a blossom head characteristic of N. tabacum.

Another factor supporting my conclusion is that the seed of Mt. Pima and of Papante pass easily through a 600 micron mesh, but fail to pass through a 400 micron mesh. This is typical of the 500 micron size of N. tabacum. The seed of Sacred Cornplanter is visibly larger (perhaps twice the diameter), and fails to pass through a 600 micron filter.

Image

Image
Image Image
Flower head and blossom comparison. Note the darker pink of the Papante, compared to Mt. Pima.

The consistent difference in the intensity of pink, between Mt. Pima blossoms and Papante blossoms strongly suggests that these are separate N. tabacum varieties from one another.

In the chart below, the upper section predicts the results if Mt. Pima and Papante are both N. tabacum, rather than N. rustica. The lower section shows my results, based entirely on the development of a seed pod.

Image

Conclusion: Both Mt. Pima and Papante are Nicotiana tabacum.

Any comments are welcomed.

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: N. rustica (Mt. Pima)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:27 pm 
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Location: NE Washington
Wow. Excellent job Bob


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 Post subject: Re: N. rustica (Mt. Pima)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:36 am 
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Location: NE Washington
I've was thinking about your experiment yesterday while I was out in the filed which got me think about just what is the accepted definition of a "Rustica". Is it the number chromosomes that define it? For example, Nicotiana Tobaccums have 48 chromosomes and Nicotiana Rusticas, like Aztec or Cornplanter have 24. Others Nicotianas like Alata, has 9 chromosomes, and Clevelandii has 12. So are Alata and Clevelandii also considered Rusticas or should they be classified differently? Or is the term "Rustica" used for anything that is not a Tobaccum?


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 Post subject: Re: N. rustica (Mt. Pima)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:14 pm 
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Or it has nothing to do with the number of chromosomes at all. ?? The Rusticas are simply a group of Nicotianas all having a common distant ancestor. I have grown Aztec, Mohawk, Sacred Wyandot, Isleta Pueblo, Punche and Sacred Cornplanter. They are all similar in many ways and it easy to see that they variants of the same plant that have developed their own individual characteristics through cultivation over time.


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 Post subject: Re: N. rustica (Mt. Pima)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:20 pm 
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Well this all looks interesting and complicated stuff which has my head spinning, if was already spinning from try to
work out how to do some 'matched betting' ( I get a free bet and I place another bet so that I end up winning the same whatever happens).

But it seem you are trying to figure out what strain of plant a plant is?

Anyway I would think things with a significant difference in number of chromosomes who be different enough to be at least
a different family of plant that could not be crossed. I would also expect to be able to visually identify what s what by flowers
etc.. but I am way out of my depth here!!

Will perhaps look again when I have more time to digest and look stuff up!


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 Post subject: Re: N. rustica (Mt. Pima)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:28 pm 
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Location: NE Washington
....."Anyway I would think things with a significant difference in number of chromosomes who be different enough to be at least
a different family of plant that could not be crossed. I would also expect to be able to visually identify what s what by flowers
etc.. but I am way out of my depth here!!"......

Yah, I'm swimming in water way over my head here too. lol But I think you are essentially correct. Differing chromosome numbers would prevent many species of nicotianas from crossing with each other. In some cases you may get a hybrid cross but the resulting plant would be sterile. Like crossing a horse with an ass. You get a mule, but the mule is sterile 99.99% of the time.

Here is a link to a page that lists the chromosome numbers for a few of the nicotiana species. It's been posted here before.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 29/?page=2

In recent years genetic sequencing has revealed that Nicotiana Tobacum is the result of a naturally occurring cross between Nicotiana Sylvestris and Nicotiana Tomentosa, probably occurring several hundred thousand years ago. N. Sylvestris and N. Tomentosa each have 12 chromosomes. This cross resulted in N. Tobacum, which is listed as having 24 chromosomes. So a Tobaccum should readily cross with a Rustica which also has 24 chromosomes. But today's modern Tobacums are diploid and have double sets of chromosomes, giving them a total of 48 which prevents them from crossing with Rusticas.

So how did modern N. Tobacums double their chromosomes and become diploid? I dunno. Are there still strains of wild N. Tobacum that are not diploids and still contain only 24 chromosomes? I would guess there would be. Maybe Bob or someone else can shed a little more light on the subject. I'm going to do some more reading on this. I find it rather fascinating. And it would be really nice to know what can and what can not cross with each other. I have a lot of different varieties growing each year and get really sick of bagging flowers.


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 Post subject: Re: N. rustica (Mt. Pima)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:49 am 
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Historically, there are two species of Nicotiana that are considered to have been intentionally and extensively cultivated and "improved" for thousands of years. In South America, the species was N. tabacum. In Central America, it was N. rustica. Neither of these is generally capable of maintaining a naturally propagated stand for more that a few years, since their seed pods fail to spontaneously disperse most of their contained seed. These two species (like most domesticated vegetables) require the hand of man for their adequate propagation. Cultivated N. rustica seed was carried by the Indian trade routes from Central America up to what is now New England more than 800 years ago, and was consciously propagated by tribes in those regions, rather than its growing "wild."

By contrast, there are over 70 other species of Nicotiana that are true wild types, and are fully capable of replacing themselves year-to-year, without human intervention. Some of these species were husbanded by native people throughout the Americas--particularly in the western states and upper Great Plains.

Chromosome number is only one factor that determines whether or not two different species can inter-breed. If important genes are located in different regions of the same chromosomes, or on different chromosomes, then a merging of the chromosomes of the two species can (and usually will) result in fatal combinations.

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: N. rustica (Mt. Pima)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:50 pm 
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Interesting stuff!!
I mean I used to think of the Indians as pretty privative people but it seems like they were advanced genetic engineers!!
I bet they knew far more about this kind of stuff than people graduating with botany degrees do now!!
They kind of make me feel stupid, and they would not be far wrong :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: N. rustica (Mt. Pima)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:55 am 
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There is no question that people thousands of years ago were just as clever and intelligent as they are today. But many agronomic developments were the result of unconscious selection.

As an example, food gatherers in the Middle East collected kernels of wild wheat for eons before domesticated wheat became practical. The likely advance resulted from the circumstance that most of the wild wheat kernels that they could collect came from those few plants that happened (by genetic "misfortune") to not spontaneously burst their seed heads, and disperse their seeds. Those particular plants would always be rare, since they do not propagate themselves adequately. But they were the easiest for humans to collect. After thousands of years of planting some of these unusual kernels, the trait of non-bursting heads became established as domesticated wheat.

This is likely what happened with Nicotiana tabacum and N. rustica. The majority of "collectible" seed came from the few freak plants that did not spontaneously burst their seed pods. So domesticated tobacco eventually required human intervention in order to propagate.

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: N. rustica (Mt. Pima)
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 11:33 am 
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Resurrected. :P

I started some papante rustica this season, the last time I tried to grow them they didn't bloom, maybe 'cause they didn't get enough sun light and maybe because they were near black walnuts.

It is interesting to me that the papante has both leaves like a tobacum and the pink flowers of a tobacum(I have seen pictures anyways). I would like to know how the nicotine content in papante compares to other rusticas, especially those of yellow versus pink flowers. I have googled searched but can't seem to find anything, any leads will be appreciated.

Thanks for the research you have done deluxestogie. Seems to me to indicate that if papante is a rustica it is very near the possible mutation that resulted in tobacum, that would be if tobacum is the poduct of genetic selection.


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