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 Post subject: Moist Snuff / Dip Recipe - Results (Updated)
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 9:18 am 
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UPDATE 8-9-14
Mentol Solution - menthol crystals were dissolved in Everclear at a ratio of 2c. Everclear to 30 grams menthol crystals. Then left to dissolve.

Inital test - Then using a ratio of 20-40-40(menthol-mint-wintergreen), 10 drops menthol, 20 drops mint, and 20 drops wintergreen were added to 1.5 oz(1 can) of copenhagen mix(from below) that had been aging in a tub.

Results - It can definitely be tweaked some, but I actually kind of like it.(A first so far) Very close to Red Seal or Skoal wintergreen. I may lighten up of the menthol a little, but I'll have to play with it when I have more time to tweak the ratios. Menthol definitely gets rid of the bitterness of the other two as long as too much menthol is not used. Otherwise, it's like sucking on a Hall's ice cough drop. I haven't used it as a substitution in the "Skoal" recipe below yet.

UPDATE 7-29-14
I spoke with a food scientist and found some very useful information. He said the wintergreen(methyl salicylate) has to be mixed with mint and a "cooling agent" such as menthol crystals. There are very specific cooling agents that companies like BASF produce, but they are not readily available to the public. These all have varying tastes and lasting effects so you are never likely to get an exact match. The cooling agent removes the bitterness and harshness out of the wintergreen, which is exactly what I have experienced. There are also "modifiers" such as vanilla, cinnamon, etc., but I have already incorporated some of those. His example was this, which is commonly seen in gum:

20-40% Wintergreen
20-40% Mint
20-40% Menthol

I have not had time to experiment so play around with it. I am going to start out with the total amount of wintergreen I was putting into the recipe and try something like a 20-40-40 split to start with. I can state that I did mix some pure mint into a can and let it sit for a bit, and it instantly changed some of the harshness. If you can come up with a good combination, you can mix the ratios all together and have you a "ready-to-go" sauce like the tobacco companies use. Also, these are what's called "self-limiting" meaning that more is not better. At some point, they will begin to taste bitter again if too much is used, especially menthol.

ORIGINAL POST

This is so others can hopefully build off of the forty plus trials I have conducted over the course of the last two years in an attempt to create something comparable to Skoal Original and Copenhagen Original. I have read through patents, ingredient by weight breakdowns, ph results, moisture contents, old writings, books that date as far back as the 1800's, process reports, etc. I have found that age seems to be the best determining factor in taste. Some of my first attempts that tasted horrible are as good or better than anything I make today after sitting in a sealed plastic container for two years. Unfortunately, that requires waiting. The reason tobacco can be packed after the process when it has a 50% moisture rate, and not before, is because molds and yeasts are pretty much dead over a PH of 7.5 (They actually like a PH of 5-6, slightly acidic.) If someone has ever found their moist snuff tobacco with mold all over it, it was because the PH wasn't high enough. This only applies to snuff and chewing tobacco. The PH ranges for other products are different for very good reasons and, generally, dry since they have to be smoked.

A major tobacco co. out of TN told me that the price point difference in their products was not from different ages but from different grades of tobacco. I have used all grades and varieties of tobacco without much notice in difference. She was reading from a script so who knows? I do know that allowing inventory to sit on a shelf for one year versus four years is a major difference in production cost. I have copies of patents that detail "forced aging" which narrows the fermenting process down to 48 hours instead of 4-6 weeks through use of the Maillard Reaction. These recipes use a version of that with un-fermented smoke-cured dark tobacco, although I have fully fermented dark tobacco from scratch. I can't really tell a difference either way. I have smoke cured tobacco, air cured tobacco, fermented pre-production, fermented post-production, pre-heated the raw tobacco to 140, 170, 200, or 300 degrees, post-heated tobacco to 140, 170, 200, or 300 degrees, heated before introducing the casing and top flavoring, heated after introducing casing but before top flavoring, used pure wintergreen, used wintergreen flavoring, etc. It goes on ad nauseam. I could write a book.

Most of my work has been spent on wintergreen recipes. I tried Nick's wintergreen recipe and couldn't get anything that tasted remotely like he said it did. It tasted like soy sauce to me. That being said, by working off his recipe, I did come out with something that tasted pretty close to Copenhagen after two months of aging. He was right that texture is a big part. Like he said, if you just use leaves(no stems) it tastes mushy. Even when imparting the Maillard Reaction through initial heating, the snuff will eventually get mushy in your mouth like chew without the stems.

This will be specific so if you do something different I cannot guarantee that you will get the same results, although I believe the longer tobacco ages, the more it closes the gaps between differences. Overall, the specific varieties and types of tobacco may not matter that much. I don't know. What I do know is that by adding the second set of ingredients that I came out with a completely different tasting product because it was originally a large batch that was split with the additional ingredients being added only to the second half of the split.

If the amounts in the two recipes seem in conflict at times, I am only copying down what is in my log book as should be done. If you attempt to make snuff, do like I have and keep something like a lab journal, logging everything and numbering the recipes in the book, as well as, on the container with dates. If you add even the smallest ingredient later on, log it. You will forget or misremember it later on when it counts the most. Trust me. I don't fault anyone's attempts because this is tough. I've done every other type of tobacco(chew, cigars, cigarettes) and this is by far the hardest to get right. Lord knows, I haven't gotten it right yet. Maybe someone will discover some key component that I have overlooked. The only thing I haven't tried yet is to throw it in a barrel for four years. Next, I am going to try original Scope as a flavoring and see how that works. {Update Note: Scope doesn't work well at all.}

Copenhagen Original Substitute

Tobacco - Little Crittendon (Heavily Smoked) then aged in bales for 6mo. (If you buy your tobacco, this is already done, depending on the type)

Ingredients

1.
8 oz. tobacco with stems weighed at 0% moisture
3/4 c. regular Kikkoman soy sauce
1 tbsp. Grandma's Original Molasses (sulfur molasses doesn't exist anymore)
2 tbsp. baking soda
1 tbsp. non-iodine salt (canning/kosher)
100 ml H2O

2.
2 tsp. liquid smoke hickory
2 tbsp whiskey
1 tsp baker's ammonia (ammonium carbonate)
20 drops LorAnn Oils Licorice extract


Instructions

1.Grind tobacco with stems extra fine x3 in Powermatic Tobacco grinder
2.Dry for 1.5 hrs at 200 deg until showing 0% moisture
3.While hot, mix first set of ingredients, spread out on pan with wood chips, cover with foil, and bake for 7 hours at 200 degs. (I show 100 ml of H2O but sometimes that varies. It needs to be moist. 30-40% moisture)
4.Remove and place in bowl. Mix second set of ingredients. If needed, add additional H20 to bring up to 50% moisture. (If no moisture meter, this can be done by weighing dry ingredients and adding enough H2O to double the dry weight if no H2O evaporated because of loose covering in the first heating.)
5.Place into a sealed container with toasted oak chips mixed in and heat for 14 days at 120-140 degs
6.Place on shelf in sealed container to age for several months. (If tobacco seems to moist, take off top and let top layer dry out, recap, shake, and repeat if necessary.)

    Notes:
    I shake and open it up from time to time. Smell and taste still seems to be the best indicator of how well it is aging.
    The oak chips are to mimic the release of the wood tannins in the hog head barrels that it is stored in.
    The PH measures a little over 8.0, where Copenhagen should be.
    This is not true fermenting. The ingredients and the 200 deg heat kill any enzymes that could carry that process forward.
    This is not perfect, but it is the closest I have put into my mouth so far. I can't say yet what it would taste like another year or so down the road.

My process for Skoal is completely different, although it is not where I want it. I am still conducting experments.

Skoal Original Substitute

Tobacco - Greenwood Dark (Heavily Smoked) then aged in bales for 6mo. (If you buy your tobacco, this is already done, depending on the type)

Ingredients

1.
1.5 c. cane sugar
350 ml H2O

2.
1/2 oz. 100% wintergreen oil
2 tbsp. whiskey
2 tbsp. vodka
2 oz. H2O
    2 tsp. sodium carbonate(PH Up)
    1/4 tsp bakers ammonia(ammonium carbonate)
4 tbsp non-iodine salt
1/8 tsp cocoa
1/8 tsp vanilla

Instructions

1.Grind tobacco with stems extra fine x3 in Powermatic Tobacco grinder
2.Dry for 1.5 hrs at 200 deg until showing 0% moisture
3.While hot, mix first set of ingredients, spread out on pan with wood chips, cover with foil, and bake for 7 hours at 200 degs. (I show 350 ml of H2O but sometimes that varies. It needs to be moist. 30-40% moisture)
4.Remove and place in bowl. Mix second set of ingredients. (Mix carbonate, ammonia, and 2 oz. warm H2O together before pouring into tobacco otherwise carbonate will not dissolve) If needed, add additional H20 to bring up to 50% moisture. (If no moisture meter, this can be done by weighing dry ingredients and adding enough H2O to double the dry weight if no H2O evaporated because of loose covering in the first heating.)
5.Place into a sealed container with toasted oak chips mixed in and placed into cold storage at 38 degs for 1 week.
6.Place on shelf in sealed container to age for several months. (If tobacco seems to moist, take off top and let top layer dry out, recap, shake, and repeat if necessary.)

    Notes:
    I shake and open it up from time to time. Smell and taste still seems to be the best indicator of how well it is aging.
    The oak chips are to mimic the release of the wood tannins in the hog head barrels that it is stored in.
    The PH measures a little around 7.8, where Skoal should be.
    This is not true fermenting. The ingredients and the 200 deg heat kill any enzymes that could carry that process forward.
    This is one of the better trials but still has a somewhat different taste.


Last edited by squiznall on Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:40 pm, edited 12 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Moist Snuff / Dip Recipe - Results
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 11:06 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:02 am
Posts: 5541
Location: central coast of Kalifornia
Tnx SQL !

Looks pretty good.

Thanks for putting your recipe out here so we can try it out.

Best
rc


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 Post subject: Re: Moist Snuff / Dip Recipe - Results
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 10:46 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:40 pm
Posts: 439
Location: Coastal Texas
Wow! I dont use snuff but that is a great post! Very informative.


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 Post subject: Re: Moist Snuff / Dip Recipe - Results
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 11:44 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:48 pm
Posts: 4
Thnx. I wanted to put something out that was comprehensive and specific since I haven't really seen that. Hopefully, others will build off of it and come up sith something better. BTW, if someone wants to build a float chamber and use styrofoam trays, contact Carolina Greenhouses. ( http://www.carolinagreenhouses.com ) for the trays. They are very helpful. Although being in the farming business, they usually take orders of a 1000 or so via freight, she will ship a box full via UPS. A box will have six to seven trays(depending on cell count) and cost around $65. The trays are around $3 ea. but UPS on the box is around $30. 200 count is a good tray, but they sell everything currently being used in the industry. Much better results than using nursery trays. You don't have to worry about constantly drowning the plants or starving them for water.


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 Post subject: Re: Moist Snuff / Dip Recipe - Results
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:55 pm 
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The recipe has been updated


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 Post subject: Re: Moist Snuff / Dip Recipe - Results (Updated)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:43 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:48 pm
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Post has been updated again with Menthol mixture added.


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